Should .50 Cal weapons be banned?

[Skyrad 0]

So I found this web site

http://www.50caliberterror.com/index2.html

Do you think .50 Cal weapons should be available to civilians? Personally I'd quite like to own one and might do just that.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[SpeedRacer 1]

how would such a ban keep them out of the hands of terrorists?

Speed Racer
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[Skyrad 0]

I'm not saying it would. I'm asking what you all think.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[DaVinci 0]

Anyone find it funny that the website is part of "The United States Freedom Alliance"?

[AFFI 0]

Quote

how would such a ban keep them out of the hands of terrorists?

Well, according to the libbos, if you smoke pot you are funding terrorists and will end up homeless and pregnant.
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[AggieDave 6]

Even if they were banned, would it keep them out of the hands of terrorists?

I can't go buy a RPG (even if I did "need" one, you know, for hunting), but some how they have a shit-ton of them.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Skyrad 0]

Within the US?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

SELLING HIGH POWERED MILITARY WEAPONS IN THE SUBURBS

The Threat of .50 Caliber Armor-Piecing Sniper Rifles

In 1987, Barrett Firearms Manufacturing Inc., patented its self-described "armor-penetrating" .50 caliber BMG sniper rifle. Capable of destroying armored personnel carriers, aircraft and bulk fuel and ammunition sites, the .50 caliber sniper rifle is now proliferating in the civilian market. Accurate at up to 2,000 yards (20 football fields end-to-end) it can inflict effective damage to targets over four miles away. With more power on impact then any other semi-automatic rifle legally available on the civilian market, the .50 caliber represents a serious threat to our local law enforcement and national security.

First used by the military during the Gulf War, the .50 caliber BMG anti-armor sniper rifle is no ordinary rifle. Its design enables the destruction of military aircraft and heavy machinery from long ranges. The concept of discrete shooting distances shaped its use and image as an ideal sniper weapon. The .50 caliber was designed with the most exceptional power, accuracy and destructive characteristics of all semi-automatic rifles. The key to its lethality is the .50 caliber bullet. Although the size of the rounds is alarming, it is the energy at impact (ft-lb) that makes the rounds so destructive. Fifty caliber ammunition has more than 7 times the power on impact as the .30-06, 5 times that of the .308 and over three times that of the .338.[1]

The deadliest .50 caliber ammunition is the Raufoss multi-purpose round. These bullets combine armor-piercing, explosive, and incendiary effects for maximum destruction. The United States Marine Corps notes that the Raufoss multi-purpose round can penetrate an inch of steel at 2000 yards.[2] Additionally, International Defense Review estimates that the round is "probably capable of disabling a man wearing body armor who is standing behind the wall of a house at 2,000 meters."[3] The impact of these rounds are so horrific that in 1998 the International Committee of the Red Cross tried to have the round declared an "exploding bullet" banned under international law.[4] An excerpt from Sniper: The Skills, the Weapons, and the Experience provides an example of how the U.S. military exploited its tremendous firepower during the Gulf War: "The Barrett M82A1 was used in the Gulf War; a hundred rifles were rushed to the Marine Corps in time to see action in the desert. In one engagement, Sergeant Kenneth Terry of 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines, hit and knocked out an Iraqi BMP armored personnel carrier with two armor-piercing incendiary rounds at a range of 1100 meters."[5]

The most regularly used round of .50 caliber ammunition is called the "ball." According to the U.S. Army, ball ammunition is so powerful it can penetrate one inch of concrete, six inches of sand, and 21 inches of clay at a range of 1,640 yards.[6] At a range of 38 yards it can penetrate an inch of armor plate and 16 inches of log wall. Armor-piercing and incendiary ammunition is another basic .50 caliber round which the U.S. Army uses against armored aircrafts and lightly armored vehicles.[7] The armor piercing incendiary rounds are tipped with phosphorous that explodes on impact and burns at 3,000 degrees. These rounds will ignite almost any fuel they encounter, and if shot into a tree will set the tree on fire.[1]

Sale to Civilian Population
Although primarily used by militaries around the world, the .50 caliber sniper rifle and its various types of ammunition are readily available to the public. Forbes Magazine noted that in recent years the number of manufacturers of the sniper rifles for civilians has increased from one in 1987 to possibly as many as 24 today.[7] The boom in interest in the weapon propels this increased number of manufacturers. Drastic reduction in price of the .50 caliber rifle has stimulated increased sale and access to the weapons. The increase in sales is most apparent at the lower end of the price spectrum. A .50 caliber BMG sniper rifle can be purchased online for just over $1,000.

While there is no evidence that the .50 caliber sniper rifle was designed for recreational use, its manufacturers have often labeled it as a sporting rifle to legitimize their sale of this deadly weapon to the public. Curt Bartlett, Chief of the Firearms Technical Branch at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms', illustrated just how inappropriate the .50 caliber sniper rifle is for sport when he said, "anything bigger would be getting into the range of cannons."[8] Unfortunately, along with everyday citizens, potential terrorists, militia members and other violent individuals also have easy access to both the armor piercing ammunition and the sniper rifles at gun stores, over the internet, at gun shows and through person to person sales.

Marketing to the Snipers and Terrorists
Sales literature from Barrett Firearms Manufacturing and E.D.M. Arms, respectively, tout the .50 caliber sniper rifle as capable of "destroying multimillion dollar aircraft with a single hit delivered to a vital area" and to "attack various material targets such as parked aircraft, radar sites ammunition, petroleum and various thin-skinned material targets."[9] Additionally, manufacturers themselves advertise these weapons as "sniper" rifles and use slogans such as "When your mission objective is further than the eye can see."[9] The World's Sniping Rifles, a catalogue of various caliber rifles and accessories, explains how the Barrett Company even promoted the weapon's ability to destroy jet aircraft: "There was a good deal of skepticism at the thought of using such a heavy weapon for sniping but, after Barrett pointed out that the object was to wreck several million dollars' worth of jet aircraft with one or two dollars' worth of cartridge, the whole thing began to make more sense and the idea spread."[10]

Opponents of regulating the sniper rifle repeatedly claim that they are used exclusively for target shooting by sports enthusiasts.[9] This is an effort to hide from the American public the devastating capabilities of .50 caliber rifles proliferating in their backyards. The apparent disregard for the safety of the community was not lost on GAO investigators who were hastened by dealers to buy their weapons soon because of the possibility that fifty caliber rifles would be banned in the future as a result of their power. One dealer stated to a GAO investigator:

"You'd better buy one soon. It's only a matter of time before someone lets a round go on a range that travels so far, it hits a school bus full of kids. The government will definitely ban .50 calibers. The gun is just too powerful." [9]

Also, proponents argue that .50 caliber BMG rifles are huge, heavy, and clumsy and unlikely to be used in either terrorists or criminal acts. This argument rings hollow when they continue to design weapons such as the Windrunner XM-107 and the Windrunner M96 .50 Caliber BMG which EDM Arms advertises as a "lightweight tactical takedown .50 Cal. BMG bolt-action repeating rifle" capable of being broken down and collapsing into a "very small inconspicuous package". The Windrunner M96 can be taken-down into 5 pieces in less than 1 minute.[12]

Terrorist and Criminal Use of .50 Caliber Sniper Rifles
According, to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF), the .50 caliber sniper rifle has a dangerous history of criminal misuse. This can only worsen as the weapon becomes cheaper and more readily available. BATF has linked .50 caliber BMG sniper rifles to drug dealers, international drug cartels, militia and terrorist groups and a religious cult. Additionally, a 1999 report by the General Accounting Office, "Criminal Activity Associated with .50 Caliber Semiautomatic Rifles," stated that of 27 traces involving the Barrett M82A1 (one of the most popular .50 caliber rifles on the market) 18 (66%) were associated with criminal activity.[13]

As part of its investigation for the Committee on Government Reform, GAO investigators traced .50 caliber sniper rifles seized from crime suspects and found that many of the weapons were discovered in what they described as "the scene of some extremely troubling criminal activities"[11] including international terrorism and foreign drug cartels. GAO investigators concluded that, "the accessibility of these weapons in the United States is becoming known worldwide."[11] The following summarizes a few cases in which .50 caliber sniper rifles have been identified.

Drug dealers in California, Missouri and Indiana were in possession of .50 caliber sniper rifles that were recovered by state police authorities using search warrants.[13]

An international drug cartel in Mexico was discovered with a .50 caliber sniper rifle and 100 AK47s at the scene of a multiple homicide shootout. The Los Angeles Police Department assisted Mexican authorities in tracing the .50 caliber sniper rifle to a gun dealer in Wyoming.[13]

Three members of the radical North American Militia arrested in a plot to bomb federal office buildings, destroy highways, utilities and public roads, and assassinate the state's governor, senior U.S. Senator, federal judges and other federal officials had a .50 caliber sniper rifle in their possession. All were ultimately convicted.[14]

A member of the radical Mountaineer Militia in West Virginia was arrested by federal agents in a plot to bomb an FBI office. A search of the suspect's home recovered a .50 caliber sniper rifle.[13]

Seven suspects with two .50 caliber sniper rifles were arrested by the U.S. Coast Guard in the Caribbean in a plot to assassinate Fidel Castro by using the .50 caliber sniper rifles to shoot down his plane off the coast of Venezuela.[11 & 13]

Canadian officials found a .50 caliber sniper rifle and 500 rounds of ammunition for it, along with explosives, at a remote site. A Texas militia group was suspected of running an illegal training camp.[14]

BATF agents reported that the Branch Davidians at Waco fired .50 caliber sniper rifles at BATF agents attempting to execute a search warrant. BATF had requested the use of Bradley Fighting Vehicles to execute the search warrant because the Bradley is believed capable of withstanding .50 caliber firearms. But the Bradley's were not used and four agents were killed.[13]

Two members of a doomsday religious cult in Montana that build underground bunkers were convicted for using false identification to stockpile ten .50 caliber sniper rifles along with other firearms and thousands of rounds of ammunition.[13]

A survivalist/tax protester in Georgia who had stockpiled firearms including two .50 caliber sniper rifles purchased with false identification was arrested in a joint raid by BATF and the IRS. The suspect also had 100,000 rounds of ammunition, silencers and $400,000 in gold, jewelry and cash.[11 & 13]

A .50-caliber sniper rifle, smuggled out of the United States, was used by the Irish Republican Army to kill a large number of British soldiers.[14]


http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issues/?page=50cal

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[AggieDave 6]

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Within the US?

Many people in the US have been arrested for similar illegal weapons. RPGs, regular gernades, anti-personal mines, etc.

Think about the people that haven't been found that also have that sort of firepower. Sure, more laws limiting law abiding citizens are definately the answer.

What people forget to talk about when talking about the .50 rifles are their cost and the cost of ammo. That alone keeps it out of the hands of many people that would do harm. Sure those that are dedicated and want the weapon are going to get one, but how would a new law supplant that?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[akarunway 1]

Sounds to me like alot of people (like me) also want to be able to defend themsleves from a corrupt govt.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[JohnRich 4]

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Anyone find it funny that the website is part of "The United States Freedom Alliance"?

It's the "Freedom States Alliance".
More about them Here.
Quote:

"Before America can enact significant policies to reduce gun violence we must challenge the belief that our citizens are safe in a country flooded with deadly guns; from junk handguns and cop-killing assault weapons to deadly sniper rifles and weapons designed for the battlefield. We have to engage in a dialog about whether Americans can be truly free when gun violence terrorizes our communities, destroys our families, and plagues our nation."

In other words, guns are the root of all evil, and they should all be banned. It's the same old tired crap.

[Skyrad 0]

What is the law in regards to .50 Cal rifles in the US? Does it vary from state to state? Is there states that have banned .50 Cal weapons?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[AggieDave 6]

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and cop-killing assault weapons

This cracks me up. When people are pushing their political agenda, the cops are the good guys. When they're making another point, the cops are all crooks and can't be trusted.

You know there's been officers killed by shots from a .22 and .22LR, even while wearing a vest (went through the arm hole). But its definately the AK-47s that are the problem. HA!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[JohnRich 4]

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The following summarizes a few cases in which .50 caliber sniper rifles have been identified...

Note that in that list of 10 crime incidents, in 8 of those cases the people arrested were simply in possession of a .50 caliber rifle, but hadn't actually used the rifle to commit any crime. And, according to the Brady gun-ban folks, .50's were used to kill cops in the Waco seige and by the IRA. I'd like to see their supporting evidence to prove those two allegations...

At any rate, if the Waco incident is all they can come up with for criminal use of .50 caliber rifles in America as justification to ban them, then they're got an awfully weak case.

[Zipp0 1]

You can buy armor piercing and armor piercing incendiary rounds for several calibers.

http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=26

Also, most rifles under 50 cal will penetrate a signifcant amount of steel plate. My 60 year old mosin nagant with API ammo would probably take out a Hummer with a well placed stot.

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Skyrad 0]

The IRA did use a .50 Cal Barrett. The shooter was arrested in South Armagh by the SAS. The only reason he wasn't killed is because of political preasure because of the peace process.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[AggieDave 6]

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Also, most rifles under 50 cal will penetrate a signifcant amount of steel plate. My 60 year old mosin nagant with API ammo would probably take out a Hummer with a well placed stot.

I can't think of ever hearing of any officers that wear Class IV vests on the street daily. Swat teams do, sometimes, but your average officer wears a Class II-III vest. Practically every rifle round is "armor piercing" against those vests. They're designed to stop pistol rounds of various calibers depending on the class of the vest.

A 30-06 will go straight through one of those vests. How many of those are there in the US? Somewhere between "a lot" and "a shit-ton." How many officers are killed each year from those rifles? Not many, I think there was 1 last year. More officers died from heart attacks and a stressful life last year then that.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[JohnRich 4]

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What is the law in regards to .50 Cal rifles in the US? Does it vary from state to state? Is there states that have banned .50 Cal weapons?

They are legal under federal law.

I think that California is the only state that has banned them so far. Others are trying.

The organization which represents .50 caliber rifle owners:
http://www.fiftycal.org/

[Skyrad 0]

Quote

Quote

The following summarizes a few cases in which .50 caliber sniper rifles have been identified...

Note that in that list of 10 crime incidents, in 8 of those cases the people arrested were simply in possession of a .50 caliber rifle, but hadn't actually used the rifle to commit any crime. And, according to the Brady gun-ban folks, .50's were used to kill cops in the Waco seige and by the IRA. I'd like to see their supporting evidence to prove those two allegations...

At any rate, if the Waco incident is all they can come up with for criminal use of .50 caliber rifles in America as justification to ban them, then they're got an awfully weak case.

The shooters name was Micheal Caraher, his firing posistion was from the back of a Mazda 626. He was arrested in April 96 the weapon was a Barrett 90.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[JohnRich 4]

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Also, most rifles under 50 cal will penetrate a signifcant amount of steel plate. My 60 year old mosin nagant with API ammo would probably take out a Hummer with a well placed stot.

Correct. But the gun-o-phobes go after the .50's because there aren't many of those gun owners around, and they can't marshal much money with which to defend themselves. The gun-o-phobes are attacking the weak animals, at the edge of the herd. They know that if they tried to go after the owners of .308, .30-06 and 7.62 rifles, that they wouldn't stand a chance, because they are too numerous. And those guns can inflict long-range damage similar to a .50. The gun-o-phobes would ban those too if they could. But they have to get the .50's first, based upon their potential capabilities. Then they'll ratchet down their criteria just a bit, and use the same reasoning to come after all the .30 caliber rifles.

[Skyrad 0]

OK, so two people have voted to ban Civvie use of the .50 Cals. So why? If you voted no then lets hear why not? Personally I like the challenge of long range shooting and would like to own a .50 Cal. So why not?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Zipp0 1]

That's when I and many others will start buying and burying.

But you may very well be correct.

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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OK, so two people have voted to ban Civvie use of the .50 Cals. So why? If you voted no then lets hear why not? Personally I like the challenge of long range shooting and would like to own a .50 Cal. So why not?

Well said! I want one as well, and a .338 Lapua.

I guess if I do buy them it will be an M96 Windrunner with both bbls.

[Douva 0]

Excerpt from "Gun Facts Version 4.1," Page 12-13.

Copyright 2006, Guy Smith www.GunFacts.info, All Rights Reserved

.50 CALIBER RIFLES

Myth: .50s are the favorite weapon of terrorists

Fact: Statistically speaking, the majority of terrorist attacks are in the form of bombings (90%),
kidnapping (6%), armed attack (2%), arson (1%), firebombing (1%), and other methods (2%).65
Of the “armed attacks”, the most favored weapons used were fully automatic AK-47 rifles.

Fact: A commercial .50 caliber costs upwards of $10,000 each, yet terrorists can buy the
favored AK-47s in Pakistan for less than $200. They will opt for the more practical rifle.

Fact: .50 rifles are heavy (20-35 pounds), expensive (from $3,000 to $10,000 each) as is the
ammunition ($2-5 per each round for military quality), impossible to conceal (typically four feet
long), most are single shot (slower to reload than a hunting rifle) and impractical for terrorist.

Fact: .50 rifles have only been used in 18 crimes in the history of the United States.66

Myth: American gun makers sold .50s to terrorists

Fact: This “study” by the anti-gun Violence Policy Center was inaccurate. The rifles in
question were sold to the United States government. The U.S. government gave the rifles to
Afghan freedom fighters to defeat the former Soviet Union. There is no direct connection and
none of the rifles have been used in terrorist actions.67

Myth: .50 caliber shooters are terrorists in training

Fact: The average .50-caliber enthusiast is a successful businessman with an annual income of
$50,000 or more – hardly a terrorist profile.68

Myth: The Founding Fathers would have had no use for a
.50-caliber rifle

Fact: Common guns of the early American republic were larger than .50 caliber, many
measuring up to .812 caliber. The famous Kentucky Rifle (a name eventually given to most
rifles made by German immigrants) was usually .60 to .75 caliber.

Myth: .50s are capable of piercing airline fuel tanks from
a mile away

Fact: Most expert long distance shooters cannot hit a stationary target under perfect, windless
weather conditions at such distances (with one notable exception in Vietnam69). Ill trained terrorists shooting a high-recoil .50 caliber rifle at a fast moving target – such as a 600 mph
airplane – have no chance.

Myth: The bullet from this gun can penetrate concrete
bunkers

Fact: "It takes 300 rounds to penetrate 2 meters of reinforced concrete at 100 meters.”70 At $5
per round, it would cost a terrorist $1,500 in ammunition to shoot into one bunker.

Myth: The .50 caliber round is capable of piercing light
armor at 4 miles71

Fact: "At 35 meters distance [0.5% of the mythical distance], a .50 round will go through one
inch armor plate."72

Fact: "It is exceedingly difficult to hit a target, even a large one, on one shot at anything over
1200 to 1500 yards by even highly trained individuals ... The ammo is designed for a machine
gun, and is generally only good for 2-3 minutes [fraction of a degree] of accuracy. That equates
to a 30-45 inch circle at 1500 yards with a perfect rifle, no wind or other conditions and a trained
shooter."73

Myth: .50 caliber rifles can knock a helicopter from the
sky

Fact: The terminal energy of a .50 caliber (6,000 ft-lbs) is not enough to knock a modern
military aircraft from the sky unless it hits a critical component like a fuel line. Records exist
showing this has been done with common, smaller caliber assault rifles such as AK-47s.

Myth: These guns are for snipers

Fact: Americans have been long distance target shooters since revolutionary times. According
to writings of the time and using simple Kentucky long rifles and muskets, Americans were
shooting small targets upwards of 150 yards.74

Fact: “The use of it [.50 caliber] by the IRA in Northern Ireland to shoot both soldiers and
police officers at very short range (never more than 275 yards) also gave the weapon a
worldwide notoriety when the world's media slapped a ‘sniper’ label on the terrorists taking the
shots. They obviously were not and soon ran scared when professional snipers were deployed to
stop them.”75

65 Dexter Ingram, “Facts and Figures About Terrorism”, Heritage Foundation, September 14, 2001 – some attacks
had multiple methods
66 General Accounting Office, “Weaponry: .50 Caliber Rifle Crime”, Report no. OSI-99-15R, revised Oct. 21, 2001
67 Barret Manufacturing letter on their web site available January 12, 2001. Confirmed during a visit by the BATF
according to Dave Kopel in a National Review article “Guns and (Character) Assassination”, December 21, 2001
68 Congressional testimony of John Burtt, Fifty Caliber Shooters Policy Institute
69 C. Sasser and C. Roberts, "One Shot, One Kill: American Combat Snipers in World War II, Korea, Vietnam,
Beirut", referring to Marine Sniper Carlos Hathcock
70 “An Infantryman's Guide to Combat in Built-up Area" (MOUT) field manual 90-10-1, US Army, May 1993
71 Senator Dianne Feinstein, Senate testimony, March 9, 2001
72 “An Infantryman's Guide to Combat in Built-up Area" (MOUT) field manual 90-10-1, US Army, May 1993
73 Ibid
74 Clayton Cramer, “Firearms Ownership & Manufacturing In Early America”, unpublished, available at
www.ClaytonCramer.com
75 Mark Spicer, “Sniper”, Salamander Books Ltd., 2001

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I think that California is the only state that has banned them so far. Others are trying.

California has banned .50 BMG. .510 DTC EUROP aka .50 DTC is legal with the same bullet in a case that's .100" shorter.